A common question: Can gondolas be heated and/or air conditioned?
It’s a logical question. As gondolas find more usage in the urban environment, heating and air conditioning is going to become more and more standard.
Current urban applications haven’t required cooling and heating systems for the simple reason that most people aren’t in the vehicles long enough for it to be a necessity (as most urban cable transit lines are no more than a few kilometers in length).
This is going to change in the future and the industry has only recently caught up with the problem.
The problem is basic, but has major implications: Gondolas (typically) are not connected to any power source, so where then do they draw their power from?
The typical answer lies in a combination of batteries and solar panels. Problem was, solar panels used to be very expensive and batteries not so very long-lived. It’s hard to pitch yourself as an eco-friendly technology when you’re replacing (and throwing out) a fleet of batteries every year. Not only is it hard on the image, it’s hard on the pocket book as well.
As solar panels have dropped in cost while battery lifespan has increased (and continues to), so too has the cable industry’s ability to use on-board batteries to power all sorts of electronic vehicle systems; heating and cooling included.
The timing couldn’t be better. Given the industry’s recent push into the urban market, air conditioning and heating was bound to present a problem. Without longer battery lifespans (or an entirely different technological solution), the industry could have seen their efforts severely hampered.
This feature is still a rarity amongst cable systems (not withstanding new cable car systems that tend to include third rail electricity transmission), but is one that will see increased uptake in the future.
16 Comments
I am surprised solar power can provide sufficient power to heat or cool each gondola.
How would you plan to recharge the batteries – would it not be a slow process. If so presumably you would need sufficient capacity to last the entire duration of operation. Perhaps other options are super capacitors or fly wheels that could be charged very quickly – perhaps fast enough to charge as it passes through each station. As you are able to reduce capacity of the storage system that should mean a reduction in cost and weight.
For BDG & 3S would it be possible to electrify the cables (obviously you would need a live and neutral cable so this would exclude MDG systems)?
Another idea to reduce required storage capacity would be a charging system on each pylon in a similar way to that Chinese over bus (again the storage system would have to charge very quickly).
Giles,
Please see my response to Scott B (who asked a very similar question):
“The solar panels are not the main source of power for the AC system. That is the battery system. Batteries are partially recharged when in station during in-operation times and are fully recharged overnight during out-of-operation times. The solars are merely a complementary system that are more typically used for in-vehicle systems such as LED lights, cameras and voice monitors.”
There are even heatings for chairlifts. Simplest and cheapest solution is to heat up during the passage of a station and retain the heath while on the way. Storage of a hot or cold medium is much cheaper than store electric energy. The gondolas are only a few minutes under way so the can heat up or cool down frequently. Together with a good insulation there should not be to much troubles.
More troublesome is to have a heated or airconditioned station. Platform Screen doors where first introduced to allow airconditioning in metro stations. So to allow for airconditioned station gondolas would have to have platform screen doors to. The benefit would be that the cabin only exchanges airconditioned air while at a station thus reducing the cooling capacity drastically.
I am glad you decided to address this, as I feel that heat/ac is one of the major hurdles that gondolas will have to overcome to taken seriously as an urban transit option in America and other rich countries. However, your post is kind of vague. What technologies are out there and who sells them?
Matthias, I read about the heated chairlift seats at Park City and that technology could probably be used in gondolas. The problem in an urban gondola would be when the system stops or breaks down on a hot day. I know from experience at ski resorts that the temperature inside a crowded gondola on a sunny day rises surprising quickly if the system stops. Within 20 minutes you can be sweating in a t-shirt, and that is when the outside temperature is in the 40s. I imagine if it was already 80 degrees out, the temperature inside a stopped gondola could get high enough to be dangerous pretty quickly.
It seems like it wouldn’t be all that difficult to provide electricity to the cabins. Maybe they could use a third rail but with a wire instead of a rail? Or just run an extension cord from car to car with a spring powered retractor to keep it from sagging when the cars are close together in a station…
Kelly,
Please forgive the vagueness of the post. While I know that a system in Austria uses such a configuration, I have never myself witnessed it. I don’t want to make claims that aren’t true and have left things intentionally “open.” When and if I ever get to see this system, I will make sure to be as direct and specific as possible.
Solar panels are not going to cut it for heating an A/C. The smallest RV air conditioner i could find on the market draws 550watts (and provides 3400 btu/h (990w) of cooling. (about enough cooling to offset 10 peoples body heat)
At optimum angle solar panels produce between 60 and 200 watts per meter squared. on a gondola this would not be possible. I would be surprised if it would be possible to reliably get more than 100 Wm^-2 off the roof of a gondola. As such 5m^2 of panels would be required to run the tiny air conditioner listed above. I don’t think any gondolas have this much roof area per 10 passengers.
Steven, have you actually seen any system using solar or batteries for HVAC?
Heating can be done easily using a small diesel/LPG/CNG heater as are available for the RV market. These only require a very small amount of electricity. However cooling is much more difficult, I like Kelly’s extension lead idea.
Would it be possible to electrically isolate one of the cables in a 3s system and use that as a live?
Scott,
I personally have not witnessed such a system, but I know that a recent system in Austria uses just such a configuration.
Remember: The solar panels are not the main source of power for the AC system. That is the battery system. Batteries are partially recharged when in station during in-operation times and are fully recharged overnight during out-of-operation times. The solars are merely a complementary system that are more typically used for in-vehicle systems such as LED lights, cameras and voice monitors.
Scott. This is the most-intelligent posting on the most significant deficiency of urban gondola. Good work!
As for the possibility of using one of the cables in 3s as a live, when I put it them, Dopplemayr said ‘perhaps’ — along with a request for $250k to find out. When was the last time an automobile manufacturer asked a customer to bankroll the development of a new radio?
Reminds me of the story of the American touring the factory that built that East German Trabant, the car everyone loved to hate: “But in America, we change our models every year…”
The East German shrugged. “Why bother? We sell all we can make.”
Right now, the gondola marketplace is served by just two manufacturers — who can sell everything they make (and don’t have heat or air).
That will change the day after Bombardier, one of the most innovative firms on the planet, announces its Silver BULLET.
In my opinion AC is a fine thing, but not required. The motion of a cabin is enough to create a comfy climate.
Reason is the flow and exchange of wind and of course the opening of the doors within the station.
Anyway: the main aim is to provide that flow constantly. I think a few fans, like being used in cars should solve the problem.
After all: when we leave our homes we dress related to the seasons (warm in winter and short and light in summer) and not for the temperature of the transportation systems.
Roll down the windows!
LX @ “When we leave our homes we dress related to the seasons and not for the temperature of the transportation systems.”
You’re in the market for a new car. In checking the latest, a “G-car: the one that really flies”, you ask the salesman “How’s it for heat and air?”
He replies “WHAT heat and air…?! Dress related to the seasons!”
Do you buy?
Except for river raft, when did you last see public transport without heat or air?
“Except for river raft, when did you last see public transport without heat or air?”
To be precise: when I talk about AC, which I mentioned earlier before the quotation, I mean air conditioning as in cooling air down – not necessarily heating it up – which obviously is a lot easier than cooling it down.
So I never said we don’t need air! As it goes for heat: I didn’t mean that either and also wasn’t aware it means the same.
As I see it: Heating and ventilation doesn’t equal AC.
So back to your “outroducing” question
I see plenty of using “nothing” – neither AC nor heating and ventilation. Well but not in our wealthy regions.
Though we’ve got plenty of cars driven without AC. Even the metro and subway and trains here in Germany doesn’t have AC. Only heating and ventilation. AC has the ICE for instance (Inter City Express), which has no windows to open.
Did you know the developer of electric cars “reinvent” the mechanical window lifter? Feel free to think about this, feel free to reread my WHOLE comment, take it as it is: a suggestion with an meaningful explanation followed by a final sentence some people would twinkle about, as I did a bit while writing it.
Anyway, I didn’t know river raft was public transport.
i’m sure everyone that already commented on this post has their computer connected to a solar panel.
no? oh that’s right, we’ve invented batteries.
nevermind your sarcasm. i think it’s good.
an example: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2326/1756253184_96c2cc9921.jpg
there is a car that runs only by solar energy. but what happens if there are clouds? or at least: no driving at night? how could you fix that?
another example: http://www.landartgenerator.org/blagi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/AreaRequired1000.jpg
and my last example: the city i live in – population around 700.000
a research had following results: if only the roofs of the houses directed to south would be covered by photovoltaic panels, that would be enough to power the whole city.
BUT! what happens at night? no tv after dusk? only candles and fire?
so the main problem we have to face is not getting the energy: it’s all about saving it somewhere – and there you go with your batteries.
besides: that’s the chance people see in electric cars. their batteries can be used as storages for energy within a whole network. like the peer2peer technology in downloading.
LX, it’s hard to use solar cars as a prime example of solar capabilities because an array like that can cost upwards of a million dollars. These guys are using space grade gallium arsenite cells which (according to them) get 26% efficiency. High among cells, but clearly not ideal!
When the car accelerates it draw a ton of current, which drains the batteries really fast (hence the need to make the cars so light and so aerodynamic so they can maintain a constant speed).
I would imagine running AC in a cabin would be similar to the car’s acceleration, aka drawing lots of current which would kill the batteries pretty fast. A hefty investment that seems rather pointless in this situation, at least until the cell technology takes a few more leaps forward…
@Rose: I agree.
Yet it all has to start somewhere (the million dollars). Henry Ford wanted everybody to efford a car – we got that. Decades ago.
Houses can already produce more energy than they can use for their own needs – we got that years ago too.
It all takes time but there will be a time at one point with no oil for instance and we still want to travel.
Of course research and development for prototypes is expensive but worth it (necessary). Later on with mass fabrication it gets cheaper too.
“When the car accelerates it draw a ton of current, which drains the batteries really fast (hence the need to make the cars so light and so aerodynamic so they can maintain a constant speed).” Same with houses. A good insulation provides the best ratio (materials being used and energy to spend for the right climate inside).
But let me simply rearrange the scenario: you’ve got pv panels on the roof or earth’s deserts are covered with it and you’ll get your energy for your battery electric vehicle (probably most famous one right now: Tesla Model S).
All I’m saying according to frankie g’s posting is: our main issue is to save the energy somewhere. -> “no? oh that’s right, we’ve invented batteries.” 🙂
We discussed about this theme at the forum
https://www.gondolaproject.com/forum/topic.php?id=5