My hunch is that many people stumble onto the topic of Cable Propelled Transit (and this website) by googling the words urban and gondola or urban gondola. If not, go ahead and try it and see what you come up with. I’ll wait . . .
So what did you find? Likely you came upon several references to the city of Ogden, Utah and its mayor, Matthew Godfrey. We can often learn a lot (if not more) from the failures than from the successes and Ogden, Utah is one of those very failures. It’s unfortunate that “urban gondola” and “Ogden Utah” are so inextricably linked (at least where the internet is concerned), but so be it.
Apparently from around 2004 – 2008 the mayor of this small city of 80,000 people had plans to build an urban gondola connecting the downtown core, a local university and a golf course.
The scheme was not well-received. Not well-received at all. And it’s hard not to see why:
- Suspicious dealings between mayor Godfrey and the private sector interests of developer Chris Peterson made residents question the public benefit of the system. In one city resolution the project was explicitly called “The Chris Peterson Project.”
- No communications and public outreach strategy seemed to exist. Emails were never returned, phone calls ignored and despite being invited to discuss the project in public by the Ogden Sierra Club, mayor Godfrey declined.
- It appears that no one with any cable experience whatsoever was involved in the planning process. According to a commenter below, RG Consultants were involved in this project. I cannot confirm nor deny this. Any additional information on this matter would be appreciated.
- Mayor Godfrey, for his part, spent taxpayer dollars to visit European ski lifts even though his design didn’t involve any ski resort whatsoever. Meanwhile, it seems he didn’t bother to visit the Medellin Metrocable despite it being (at the time) the single most important urban gondola system in the world. (NOTE: I erroneously said that Mayor Godfrey visited ski lifts. This was a large error on my part. Mayor Godfrey visited streetcar systems. The point is therefore moot. Very sorry. – Steven Dale)
- An initial study called the Urban Gondola/Tram Comparison. This must be one of the most poorly-written and researched planning reports in the history of all public transit. Of the seven systems documented, two were purely theoretical (Baltimore and Camden), one was under contruction (Portland), and one had been dismantled 20 years ago (New Orleans MART). Of the three remaining, one was an aerial tram not a gondola (Roosevelt Aerial Tram). The report had little analysis and relied almost exclusively on Wikipedia and USA Today as sources.
- A study called the Ogden Transit Corridor Study Report. This is an ugly little piece of political gamesmanship masquerading as planning. The study concludes that LRT/streetcar transit is a more viable form of transit in Ogden for two reasons: Firstly, more riders would use a LRT/streetcar than a gondola system. Despite providing absolutely zero justification to back this statement up, it is taken as a fact and artificially drives down the cost per new rider for LRT/streetcar and drives up the cost per new rider for a gondola system. Secondly, the study uses an arcane method of decision making developed by the National Forestry Service called Choosing By Advantage. In this method, important factors were weighted more heavily than non-important factors. The most important factor? Ridership levels. This, in essence, allowed the report’s authors to double-count the matter of ridership against cable technology. Again: This, despite offering absolutely no justification for why a LRT/streetcar system would attract more riders than a gondola.
Am I claiming conspiracy theories? No. I don’t tend to believe in conspiracy theories. I am, however, calling shenanigans. On everyone’s part.
Whether for altruistic or selfish purposes, Mayor Godfrey wanted this urban gondola bad. It’s likely the whole scheme had more to do with shady golf-land-swap-deals with Chris Peterson than with public transit. Did Ogden need an urban gondola? Who knows, that’s besides the point.
At issue is how mayor Godfrey went about the process. Let’s assume his intentions were genuine, that Chris Peterson and the golf course never existed. Mayor Godfrey still never gathered the necessary community support for the project ahead of time. Because he never took the time to explain the idea, answer questions and create grassroots level support for the idea, he exposed himself to all manner of mistruths, half-truths, faulty planning reports and out-and-out-lies.
I’m not saying that Ogden should’ve built an urban gondola. But if they were to, this was certainly a textbook case of how not to go about it. In fact, it’s probably the textbook case about how not to go about it.
Cable transit and urban gondolas can win the hearts and minds of people with ease. When explained properly, urban gondolas sell themselves. We’ve seen it before and we’ll see it again.
The concept is so foreign, however, that it is absolutely necessary to engage the community you intend to serve well in advance. If not, you risk needless backlash that is completely, 100 percent preventable. If you take the time to answer the public’s questions openly and honestly they’ll come around, believe me.
Knock on doors, answer questions, hold town hall meetings, answer your emails, be proactive. Do whatever, but don’t do nothing and do it early on in the process.
11 Comments
Hi Steven,
Good article, couldn’t agree more and its unfortunate that anyone searching ‘urban gondola’ on the net ends up at this unfortunate mess of a proposal.
Its worth pointing out the scale of this system – It was proposed to be a whopping 7.2km long (from memory), with 4 to 6 terminal stations, some with turn/s. Given the low density nature of the city (which is low from my research), and the efficient road network, I would really question if they could get the ridership required to justify the system (especially at a commercial level – as hoped by the private developer – Chris Peterson. I’m an advocate of CPT as an affordable transport option for smaller cities, but I just cant see how it could ever be justified for Ogden.
Another thing… Do you know of RG Consultants LCC, they were the consultancy company involved in much of these rubbish studies and provided advise to Ogden authorities? They claim to be experts in CPT, but this is the only example I have seem them involved with, and to be honest it is crap!
Ryan
Hey Ryan,
Never heard of RG Consultants. Nowadays, a 7.2 km system with turns and 6 stations would be no problem. But back then, there was so little knowledge and info about the technology that the concept was outlandish. I also questioned the projected ridership level for both the CPT system and the streetcar option. It would be great to resolve the google problem of “urban gondola” and “ogden utah”, I’m just not sure how that could be changed.
Is this just a weird coincidence:
http://www.manta.com/c/mtbp1b0/peterson-rg-consulting-llc
I suspect that’s not just a weird co-incidence. Great spot! Given that the principal of RG is listed as a commercial real estate agent and that Mr. Peterson was also engaged in that business, I suspect Peterson RG Consulting LLC is more than just a fluke. Again, great spot!
to Steven
As a Resident of Ogden, familiar with Fixed Guideway Transit Systems the Ogden Gondola was a real a NIGHTMARE.
The Line actually was made up of three sections (23rd Street/Harrison Blvd/Weber Staste Univ-Plaza), with 1 mid stsation at 23rd and Harrison Blvd.
The Line Change involved a complete derail and two 90 degree turns to0 complete the trip to a Plaza which the rider then walked the length of the Plaza to board another Gondola to accdfess the Peterson’s Malan Basin Resort up on the Mountain.
The Gondola and Aerial Tramways work when the Location, Environment, and Situation mesh in Purpose and Need.
1-The Telluride-Mountainview Tram/Gondola
2-The Kellogg Gondola
3-The Many European, Asia, and South American Gondolas and Tramways.
You have said that the Ogden Gondola was an example of “How not to do a Project Development” is so true.
Ogden Problems
1-The fact that the Gondola made one 90 degree turn, and portentailly a 90 to 120 degree turn.
2-Thje Turning Stations were located on corners of residential homes.
3-There was one Intermediate Loading Station located at 23rd and Harrison Blvd at the Turning Station.
4-Ogden is subject to Extremely High Winds (40 to 80 Mph) anytime of the year, and so Rescue Plans and Equipment are required for System Shutdown Rescues–A very expensive part of the Project.
5-The Gondola System would be entirely dependent upon the Weber State University Students transfering from the Utah Transit Authority’s Front Runner Commuter Rail and Ogden Bus System Transfers as the Base Riders, and with the Malan’s Basin Resort being the cream of the profit.
A very poor assumption.
6-The most unbelivable part of the overall annouced plan was to build a Separate and Tempoprary Construction Gondola Line from the Construction Base Station to a Temporary Malin’s Basin Station, and remolve the Line once the Resort and Main Gondola was complete??
7-There was no Maintenance Facilities or Maintenance Program presented in the Public Announcements to deal with Cable Issues or even Pole and Idler Wheel Maintenance.
Ogden has had several Gondola and Tramway Plans presented overr the years, but the Past Plans involved a Gondola/Aerial Tramway connecting the East Ogden Bench Area with the 2002 Oylmpic Venueof Snowbasin Ski and Summer Resort–Reasonable Plans, but short on Ridership and Income, which killed each Proposal.
A Heritage Streetcar seems to be a better Concept Plan for Ogden to Connect the Intermodal Center (Transit Center), Downtown Ogden to the East Bench, Weber State University, McKay-Dee Hospital Medical Center (Big Place), as it accesses a Part of Ogden that the Gondola would have passed over.
Rule-1 of Fixed Guideway Transit Planning is the Mode must fit with the Need, the Environment, the Operating Conditions, Ridership Potential, and able to operate within the Available Funding from Ridership and Committed Permanent Funding.
–Example–The Monorail on the Las Vegas Strip was the only really functional option with the lowest impact and best value.
–Example–The Utah Transit Authority’s Trax Light Rail System is an example of dealing Earthquake Potential Damage, Soil Liqification Issues, Cost Issues, Low Impact on the Community and Environment Issues, which the Trax System has successfully surmonded and has a very Successful and Economical System.
There has been mention made of some kind of Aerial Tramway/Gondola be constructed up Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons from a Base Station at the Mouths of the Canyons or the Cottonwood Trax Station
( a challenge)
-Little Cottonwood Canyon–to Stations at the Snowbird Resort and to the Alta Ski Resort (potentially a short Connector Enclosed Gondola would connect Snowbird to Alta–as Alta is closed during the summer) to reduce the Canyon Highway Operating and Maintenance Problems
-Big Cottonwood Canyon–A Base Station at the mouth of the Canyon, or at the Cottonwood Trax Station up to the Solitude Resort, and a Connector Gondola between Solitude and Brighton (Brighton closes for the summer)
I have done a lot of the Planning for the Projects, and so I am quite familiar with the Limitations of the Gondolas and Aerial Tramways.
Stephen Smith
Ogden, Utah
@ Stephen Smith “As a Resident of Ogden, familiar with Fixed Guideway Transit Systems the Ogden Gondola was a real a NIGHTMARE.”
As a resident of Ogden too, and as one also (somewhat) familiar with fixed guideway, I did NOT find the Ogden gondola a ‘nightmare’ at all. I found it an interesting learning experience on what happens when advanced thinking meets primitive thinking. And there’s been a lot of primitive thinking surrounding this particular post. I’ll deal here with Mr. Smith’s.
“Problem 1 – the Gondola made one 90 degree and potentially a 90 to 120 degree turn(s)”.
Big deal…and hardly a problem. Do a bit of homework and you’ll see that gondolas are quite capable of making turns, including sharp turns.
“Prob 2: The Turning Stations were located on corners of residential homes.”
So? Residential homes have been known to have been sited on corners. Hardly a problem, gondola or no gondola. The big ‘thing’ is, no homes/backyards were overflown.
“Prob 3: an Intermediate Loading Station located at 23rd and Harrison Blvd at the Turning Station.”
So…?
“Prob 4: Ogden is subject to High Winds (40 to 80 Mph) anytime of the year, and so Rescue Plans and Equipment are required for System Shutdown Rescues – A very expensive part of the Project.”
While the mountain tops are subject to occasional 80 mph winds, certainly not the case at the height of the proposed gondola.
As for rescue, unlike mountain gondolas – where people can be left dangling dangling hundreds of feet in the air and require helo or winch-down rescue – Ogden’s was intended to fly low. Rescue would via existing ladder trucks. Had this proposal moved forward, methinks
that hydraulic rescue pods would have been standard equipment.
“Prob 5: The System would be entirely dependent upon the Weber State University Students transferring from the Utah Transit Authority’s Front Runner Commuter Rail and Ogden Bus System Transfers as the Base Riders, and with the Malan’s Basin Resort being the cream of the profit. A very poor assumption.”
Hardly. The system was NOT ‘entirely dependent upon WSU students’, although the 23,000-plus WSU students and staff would have made a good portion of the gondola’s ‘base’ ridership. There were six stops.
As for proposed Malans Basin Resort being the ‘cream’ of the profit’, hopefully-so. Some people don’t get it that ‘profit’ makes the world go round.
“Prob 6: The most unbelievable part of the overall announced plan was to build a Temporary Construction Gondola …and remove the Line once the Resort and Main Gondola was complete”
What’s so “unbelievable” about that? Nothing. Go back a bit in this site and you’ll see an excellent posting called “How to get a truck to the top of a mountain” https://www.gondolaproject.com/2011/03/30/how-to-get-a-truck-to-the-top-of-a-mountain/ . You’ll see pictures of construction trams hoisting even large trucks.
Ogden’s was a case of the resort developer – who, by his offer to buy up a money sucking municipal golf course, would have contributed a major share of the capital cost – was responding to criticism that building a road (which is already there) would have created problems with sensitive areas. Hence his proposal for a ‘roadless’ resort that included a temporary construction gondola. Talk about bending over backwards.
“Prob 7: no Maintenance Facilities or Program presented”.
Not so. Notwithstanding that it did not proceed past the preliminary stage, maintenance and facilities were, in fact, ‘presented’ A great deal of data – 300-plus pages that including engineering and financial date – was prepared and is available for public viewing. Just go to City Hall, file a GRAMA (information) request, and you’ll get to see it. I did and I did.
“Ogden has had several Gondola and Tramway Plans presented over the years…”
Quite true. Plans for trams and gondolas go back more than 100 years.
“Past Plans involved a Gondola/Aerial Tramway connecting the East Ogden Bench Area with the 2002 Olympic Venue of Snowbasin Ski and Summer Resort–Reasonable Plans, but short on Ridership and Income, which killed each Proposal.”
Get into it, and you’ll find that what killed it was a combination of local politics, malcontents in the local Sierra Club, internal family squabbing, and the fact that the competing resort at the end of the line didn’t want competition.
“A Heritage Streetcar seems to be better (than a gondola)…”
Now we have it! Mr. Smith is really a WhamBamTram fan. He thinks that instead of a gondola (that would be largely paid by a private developer) Ogden’s answer is to spend $200 million of taxpayer money to tear up the streets and plant a ‘heritage’ (whatever that is) streetcar. Speaking of ‘Heritage streetcar’, this suggestion for Mr. Smith and anyone else remotely interested: go to Ogden’s transit Hub and take the city’s free “Downtown Circulator”. Even when they give away rides, no one one’s interested.
“Rule-1 of Fixed Guideway Transit Planning is the Mode must fit with the Need, the Environment, the Operating Conditions, Ridership Potential, and able to operate within the Available Funding from Ridership and Committed Permanent Funding.
–Example–The Monorail on the Las Vegas Strip was the only really functional option with the lowest impact and best value.”
How can we tell that Mr. Smith never ridden the Vegas Monorail (the ”official” monorail, not one of the area’s 4 resort-operated people movers), let alone studied it? If he had, he’d know, for starters, that the 3.9 mile Monorail – which cost $220m/mile – is not even ON the Strip. It’s hidden BEHIND casinos that grace only a part of the east side of the Strip. The closest it comes is a full city block away – and even at that, you have to navigate through the deliberate maze that each of the casinos with stations constructed to turn riders into players. That boondoggle is in bankruptcy court. If you want to talk about nightmares, talk about the Vegas Monorail.
“Example–The Utah Transit Authority’s Trax System (is) a very Successful and Economical System.”
TRAX ”is a very successful and economical system”?! Has Mr. Smith studied it, or ridden it or its equally ‘successful and economical’ RearRunner commuter? I recently showed up its closest station to my home and of the five people getting off this diesel-spewing double-decker menace. three were employees, leaving only two moochers (i.e. ‘riders’).
“There has been mention made of a Gondola up Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons from a Base Station at the Mouths of the Canyons or the Cottonwood Trax Station”
For readers not familiar with the territory, Mr. Smith has now moved us lock, stock, and gondola from Ogden some 50 miles south to two canyons that are home to Salt Lake City’s ski resorts.
As for this particular ‘mention’, I ‘eat’ news on this stuff and have neither heard nor read even the slightest mention of a gondola up the Cottonwood canyons. Mr. Smith’s proposed gondola would run 14 miles up one canyon and 9 miles up another. Quite the hike.
As for his Cottonwood TRAX station connection, WHAT Cottonwood TRAX station? Like his two gondolas, it appears to only exist in Mr. Smith’s mind. The closest TRAX (LRT) station is 9 miles west at Sandy. And if that were the case, his proposed system would be some 23 miles long – some seven times longer than the longest North American gondola (at Kellogg Idaho). Not that it couldn’t be done, mind you.
“I have done a lot of the Planning for the Projects, and so I am quite familiar with the Limitations of the Gondolas and Aerial Tramways.”
Perhaps in addition to sharing some of his ‘planning’, Mr. Smith could also enlighten us on the ‘limitations of gondolas and tramways’ as apply to urban settings.
Mr. Smith or anyone else can reach me at davebrough@gmail
@ “Apparently from around 2004 – 2008 the mayor of this small city of 80,000 people had plans to build an urban gondola connecting the downtown core, a local university and a golf course.”
Oh, don’T forget, at 2004 many of these discussed things weren’t invented yet, make a trip into the past !
@ “…at 2004 many of these discussed things weren’t invented yet”
Help me narrow things down, Guenther: Which ‘discussed things had not been invented’? Dave
@ Which ‘discussed things had not been invented’?
o Basically all cable transit and urban gondola systems with more than one section !
The urban ropeways of Algeria started 2008,
the urban ropeways of Medellin started 2004 (and were widely unknown),
Merely because things aren’t ‘widely known’ doesn’t mean that they haven’t been invented, Guenther. The proposed Ogden system, the subject of this post, had the most extensive engineering I’ve ever seen applied to gondola, the several hundred pages of its report covering issues such as mid-line and turning stations that were not then widely known.
As for inventions per se, just because we haven’t seen them, doesn’t mean they’re not there. One of the best databases is Google patents. Try this one that goes back to 1977: http://www.google.com/patents?id=jxYUAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA4&dq=Current+collecting+system+for+self-propelled+aerial+tramway&hl=en&ei=8fHvTfydE4j0tgPY1byuDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false